Maxence Jacquot, creator of Work In Progress

Last April, part of the Point’n Think team went to check out Indie Game Lyon, a trade show that showcases independent video game developers from the Lyon region. You can find an interview with the organisers in the podcast section of the website. Between conferences, while browsing the stands, we came across a game with an unusual name: “Work In Progress”. Standing next to a laptop, a man wearing a red tie showed us a pixel art game set in the world of work, in which employees are slaughtered on an assembly line. Behind this project is one man, Maxence Jacquot. This film buff decided to design, on his own, a game that would serve as a vehicle for his criticism of the corporate world. This is the perfect opportunity to bring you a new episode of our “Solo Dev” saga to talk about his journey between cinema and video games, but above all his desire to denounce a system that destroys human beings.

Point’n Think: Hello Maxence and thank you for agreeing to this interview. To begin with, could you introduce yourself and describe the journey that led you to become a solo developer?

Maxence: Hello, and thank you for inviting me. One thing is certain: I’ve been gaming for a very long time. Deep down, I think that even as a child, I had this desire to move into creation, but I had convinced myself, and been convinced by those around me, that it was far too complicated. The desire returned relatively recently. Well, a few years ago, anyway. But in any case, I had this latent desire, I just didn’t dare admit it to myself. I always wanted to go into creative work. The first studies I focused on were in audiovisual media, for which I went to England to work in cinema. These studies gave me the opportunity, for example, to go to Cannes and see a bit of the whole cinema and celebrity world. There’s a lot about that world that I don’t really like. So it put me off a bit. I realised that in the analyses I was asked to do, because there’s a technical part, but also a film analysis part, there was something wrong. There were many times when I made references to video games, even though that wasn’t what I was asked to do. For me, there’s a huge connection between the two. There are certain moments that are very cinematic and could easily be used in parallel for film moments. I won’t hide the fact that this kind of approach didn’t go down well at all. In short, I didn’t like it very much. I left my audiovisual studies thinking that, ultimately, it wasn’t for me.

At the same time, because we weren’t doing much, let’s be honest, I was also studying computer science. I did a kind of double degree at the end of the second year. That was more at my parents’ urging, so I could find a real job. And in fact, it was this mix of very arty and very down-to-earth stuff that pushed me to try to merge the two a little. In the end, I think that’s what I wanted to do from the beginning. I was completely stupid not to realise it. It’s as simple as that. Around the same time, I started tinkering with a poorly performing Portuguese game engine. I can’t remember what it was called. It was a bit rubbish, but it made it easy to make games. I was starting to get the hang of it. And then Covid happened, maybe a year after that. So I came back to France.

Since I was coming back anyway, I figured I might as well change direction a little and devote myself to video games. There was no need to pretend anymore. I started studying in this field, telling myself that this was my path anyway. I was convinced that, if I had the opportunity, I would go to a small independent studio. I was never really interested in being part of a big studio. But I’m not going to beat around the bush: if I’d had an offer from a very well-known studio, in Lyon for example, I would obviously have accepted. My real ambition was to go independent, that became clear to me very quickly. Especially since, I won’t hide it, I’m lucky not to have grown up in need. I managed to get out of a precarious situation fairly quickly. I had to do odd jobs, a bit of freelance work, etc. But in any case, financial hardship wasn’t something that restricted me too much in that regard, without being a millionaire either. I struggled a lot less than some people. I’m very lucky, so I might as well make the most of it. There are a lot of people who would like to be in my situation, so I’m not going to waste it. That’s pretty much where I am right now. I’ve always had a very multi-faceted approach to game development. I like to try my hand at everything. I remember that in my course, people specialised very quickly. I didn’t want to do that, it’s still an indie thing.

Point’n Think: During your studies, did you get the feeling that video games weren’t welcome in cinema or the audiovisual industry in general?

Maxence: Yes, I was at a university in England, and they were very institutionalist. They really liked the arty side of cinema, Godard, that whole scene. Let’s just say that they steered us much more towards the alternative scene and didn’t particularly want us to get hired by Hollywood. In any case, there aren’t that many jobs in cinema. But that was more the curriculum, it was more of an arty thing. And in that sense, I find it a bit elitist. There’s no recognition of audiovisual art as we might see it on YouTube, for example, where there are certain videos that are very well produced and clearly use cinematic codes. And let’s say that for them, content creation wasn’t something they considered valid as a way to get started. You had to try to make institutional short films and get them validated at festivals. But YouTube was for losers. Whereas I’ve watched a lot of that kind of content in my life. In the end, that’s kind of what made me want to get into film. It’s kind of what led me to the passion I still have today, even if I’m a little behind in that regard, because I haven’t had time to keep up with everything. But in any case, I still love cinema and it was YouTube that awakened me to that a little. So I was a bit disgusted to see this contempt from other media, and even from its own media when it wasn’t arty enough. After that, it was also very fragmented, because there were courses that were very arty, and those are the ones I’m talking about, and others that were very technical. And there, let’s say there were far fewer of those considerations. And in the end, it was in those very technical courses that I found myself most at home. I wanted to know how to get good sound, how to use a green screen, how to edit, etc. That’s always been what I’ve been most passionate about. But in the end, it’s a shame, because there were also filmmaking classes that were really interesting, with clips and other concrete examples. But yes, I think there was a bit of contempt for the whole arty side of things. Maybe not quite as much as I’m describing, but still.

Point’n Think: What video game training course did you take? Schools have been popping up everywhere in recent years. Did you go to a public or private school?

Maxence: I started out with game design in general. Once again, my goal was to try to move towards independence, to really try to get my foot in the door. I went to Bellecour in Lyon, a private school. A lot is said about this school, and a lot of it is true. Some of it is probably a bit exaggerated, but I don’t want to get into that turf war. Let’s just say there were some disappointments, obviously. The school offers two courses, one that is very technical and one that is focused on game design. In the end, it wasn’t that technical, but that’s not a big deal. As I had already attended a private school before, I knew what to expect. And I was prepared to work hard in my free time if I really wanted to get the most out of it. That’s pretty much what I did with the technical skills, even though there were obviously technical classes covering programming, learning the engine, etc. I had a little experience with programming, so that went quickly. But learning the engine, even though there were classes to get the process started, was something I discovered mostly on my own. What they want, at least in the GD programme, is to train designers who can code quickly so they can make a prototype and sell it to someone else or pass it on to a real programmer. They don’t want someone who knows how to make a game from A to Z. They’ll help you, they’ll teach you production methods. It’s quite complicated, I’ll give them that. We try to make game design documents, for example, but from one company to another, it’s so different that they can only make something a bit general that vaguely tries to outline things. And then you’ll have to adapt if you ever get hired by a company. So it’s always complicated. Most of the people who are influential in the industry right now aren’t people who came out of game school, they did something else and then switched careers for the most part. We don’t even know if the schools are effective. It’s too early to draw any big conclusions, but it’s a start.

Point’n Think: You said that if you ever had the opportunity to work in a big studio, you would have taken it. Do you think that even in that context, you would have worked on a solo project in your spare time? Or would the big studio aspect have satisfied you?

Maxence: I don’t think the big studio aspect would have fully satisfied me. In any case, today, and even since I started telling myself that I really wanted to work in video games, I still have a little bit of ambition. I have a few themes I’d like to explore, I have things to say, I want to do it. I think that a job in a big studio, in my state of mind, can only be temporary. I know myself, if the work isn’t too exhausting and I can still breathe when I get home, there’s a world where, after a while, I would have started working on a solo project. Then again, it’s easy to say that when you’re not in the business. Until you’re in it, you don’t know the workload. With 60 hours a week, it’s hard to find the time to work on something else on the side. But in a situation where it would be possible, yes, absolutely.

Point’n Think: How do you organise your days as a solo developer today? Are you organised, setting milestones with a reverse schedule and things like that? Or is it a bit more random?

Maxence: Well, it’s organised chaos. I try to maintain a certain level of discipline. With a bit of freelance work and a little help, I’ve managed to work full-time on development for a while. Unfortunately, that won’t be possible for too long if I don’t organise myself properly. But in any case, for now, I’m developing the game full-time. That does mean I have to be strict about my schedule, at least. I need to work a certain number of hours every day to make progress on the game. Other than that, my schedule is pretty simple. I don’t really like imposing restrictions on myself. Basically, it doesn’t work for me. I just have a table with things to do and how urgent they are. But it’s broad enough to tell me that today, I want to do some animation, there’s this to animate, let’s go. Because that’s also what I like about wearing many hats: when I get tired of coding, I stop coding and do something else, but I still make progress. It still has to be finished by a certain date, let’s say by certain deadlines. But again, I don’t have much external pressure at the moment, so I’m taking advantage of that. If I need to take three months’ delay, I’ll take it.

Point’n Think: Speaking of this lack of external pressure, do you really work alone or do you call on other people, whether freelancers or even just acquaintances, to do things like music or other things you’re not good at?

Maxence: Well, when we met at Indie Game Lyon, I was really 100% alone on the game. There were just one or two pieces of artwork that had been done. I asked my girlfriend, who is a graphic designer, to do some outlines for me, and then I redid them in pixel art. But otherwise, everything in the game was 100% solo development, which is no longer the case today. I tried my hand at music, which is something I don’t know anything about, but I quickly realised that it wasn’t going to work. At Indie Game Lyon, I met a really cool guy, Julien Ramirez, and let’s just say we agreed to collaborate, for a fee of course, on the music for the game. For now, I’m still handling the sound and SFX, but at least the music is being done by someone who knows what they’re doing. I also got a little help creating the short trailer that was made for me. It’s quite a story, actually, involving a friend I met in my class who now works for Quantic Dream, so someone who knows what he’s doing. And then there’s occasional help from a friend, from time to time, for example to man the stand at Indie Game Lyon, that kind of thing. And that’s more or less it for now.

Point’n Think: After this brief overview of your life as a solo developer, let’s move on to the project we’re interested in today: Work In Progress. Could you give us a quick pitch for the game and explain what it’s about?

Maxence: The game is very simple. It’s an action shooter heavily inspired by Katana Zero and Hotline Miami, set in the corporate world, with the aim of criticising its tendency to put a little too much pressure on its employees. I was trying to take the opposite view of this state of affairs. You play as the person who torments these employees who are suffering from burnout. The game has a certain rogue element to it, but I don’t intend to make it a complete rogue-like. The aim is to use certain mechanics, particularly repetition, to emulate the pace of work. That’s how I would describe it.

And why Work in Progress? Because it’s a cool pun and because it starts with a W, which puts it at the bottom of the lists, and I think that catches the eye a bit. And let’s say I wasn’t sure about keeping the title, but I got a lot of feedback saying it was intriguing, which, for me, is good feedback. Since “work in progress” is a common expression, I still have a bit of a problem because, for example, if you search for it on YouTube, there’s absolutely no chance you’ll find my game. The search engine optimisation isn’t great. That’s the problem I didn’t necessarily realise when I approved the title because it’s funny. But hey, it’s a bit too late now. However, if you type in “Work in Progress Game”, the search engine optimisation is already quite good. Basically, it’s a surprising title. So for me, it’s still a strong point. And if you really want the full story of why the game is called that, it’s because I had been trying for a long time to make a similar game that didn’t have all this critical part of the work before. There was a much more meta idea of playing a game that isn’t finished itself. That was the intention. It was another project that I had kind of abandoned, and let’s just say that a lot of ideas were grafted onto Work In Progress by adding this theme, which is close to my heart, of exploitation at work.

Point’n Think: As you said, in terms of inspiration, we see Hotline Miami and Katana Zero. Are there other things that inspired you, particularly in relation to the world of work? I’m thinking of Have a Nice Death.

Maxence: I haven’t played it. I think there are similar things, but it’s not one of my inspirations. The same goes for Severance. A lot of people say to me, “Oh, you loved Severance.” Actually, I haven’t seen the series, which also deals with this theme to some extent. I try to stay away from anything that’s too close to the theme I’m working on. I don’t want it to influence me. I have this kind of mental block, even though it’s a bit silly. But it looks like a great universe, so maybe I should give it a go.

Point’n Think: Another question, apart from these direct influences, are you the type to be a bit self-sufficient when you’re developing, or do you try to clear your mind from time to time?

Maxence: I’d say I’m pretty much all in. I do like cinema, but unfortunately I don’t have enough time. There are times when I tell myself I’m going to catch up on all the stuff I’ve missed, like the latest releases, even though I was interested in them. There are weeks when I tell myself I’m going to do all that. But for me, it’s not necessarily about taking my mind off development, because it’s still a creative, artistic field. For me, it’s quite a similar approach. It’s my way of life.

Point’n Think: Regarding artistic direction, do you have any particular inspirations that led you to pixel art, or is it more of a technical constraint? And in your opinion, would there be any noticeable added value in switching to 3D?

Maxence: Actually, it’s a bit of both. At first, it was a technical constraint. When I started developing, even before I decided to study video games, when I started tinkering on my own, I thought pixel art looked easy to do, which isn’t true, but it seemed that way at the time. On the other hand, it’s quicker to do than other forms of art, and I still find that to be somewhat true, once you’ve mastered the basics. My main inspiration for the pixel art style is a guy called TheGraphicsKid. He makes assets that you can use for free. I drew a lot of visual inspiration from him even before he had his itch.io page. It’s a style of pixel art that really spoke to me. By trying to copy it a little, I understand a little better how it works, and I’m moving away from inspiration to create something new. That’s what got me started, but basically it was still a technical constraint.

For me, 3D has always been very complicated because it’s time-consuming. If I need a ladder in pixel art, I can do it in literally 5 seconds, whereas if I need a 3D model of a ladder, even if I’m very good at it, it takes at least 20 minutes. I know that statistically, and with evidence to back it up, 3D games sell better. But hey, you have to finish the game before you can sell it. By taking an interest in it because of the technical constraint, I developed an interest in pixel art. Today, if I do it, it’s with pleasure, it’s no longer really a constraint. I don’t regret not doing it in traditional animation or 3D. No, I think it’s stylish, it’s the pixel art I like.

Point’n Think: Did you create everything from scratch? Or did you use the Asset Store or other external resources?

Maxence: Visually, it’s all me, except for the blood spatters. There’s a blood effect sprite when you kill someone that isn’t mine. There are also a few particle effects that come from an asset, slightly modified, but it’s still an external contribution. Otherwise, I think everything else is mine, visually speaking. Technically, I have a pack for random level generation. I also use Fmod for sound management, but that’s middleware.

I keep most of the work to myself, simply to ensure visual consistency. And for that, having done a bit of pixel art, I have a colour palette that I really like. Limiting yourself to a restricted palette allows you to create visual consistency fairly quickly if you know how to use it. And I like that consistency. 

Point’n Think: As the title suggests, and as is obvious once you start playing, everything revolves around work. Why did you choose this theme? 

Maxence: Because it’s something I care about. There are two or three themes I want to address, including this one. It’s a very political theme, but strangely enough, I’m not a very militant person. Obviously, I’m interested in politics. It’s just that I find it a little difficult to identify with any particular movement. I try not to be a jerk, and we’ll see how it goes. I’m pretty convinced that it’s not that normal to have people working from 9 to 5 on something they don’t benefit from themselves and don’t really care about. Often, it interferes with their lives. Again, I’m someone who’s been lucky enough to be relatively privileged, so I haven’t suffered as much, even though I’ve had a few jobs that weren’t great. I’m not playing the victim here. I haven’t suffered as much as some people. But it exists, and for me, it’s worth talking about. Especially since today, we have the opportunity to have a much more peaceful relationship with work. That’s not exactly the direction politics is heading in, which frustrates me a lot. Perhaps I am trying, in my own small way, to fuel the debate by offering my own vision. But in any case, at its core, it’s a frustration, and it’s something I care deeply about. I would like to see a society where work is no longer a constraint, but something that people decide to do because it serves them personally, quite simply. But that’s a very utopian dream. 

Point’n Think: When we look at your career path, and indeed, as you said, you don’t have 10-15 years’ seniority in a company, we might wonder why this is something that interests you so much, despite the fact that you haven’t experienced it that much yourself?

Maxence: It’s true, I haven’t experienced it that much. But I do have friends who have served as references for me. These are things that have affected my loved ones, especially members of my family, who have been very alienated by work. It hurt me a lot to see them like that. What frustrated me a little bit about it all was that they saw the consequences of oppressive work on them, but they couldn’t put their finger on what was causing it. Basically, they didn’t have the perspective to realise that it wasn’t normal to do that. Let’s say that maybe that fuelled my frustration, but it’s true that you could question my legitimacy by saying that I’m not the best person to talk about it since I haven’t experienced it myself. Then again, I always have this argument, which is a bit facile, that I don’t need to be hit by a car to know that it hurts. But it’s very real. It’s just that it’s a subject that speaks to me. I have a thought on this subject that I think is interesting. If someone tells me it’s not valid, then it’s not, and that’s fine. It’s just that I needed to talk about it.

Point’n Think: How do you manage to convey all that in your video game?

Maxence: I really like a South Korean director called Bong Joon-ho, who has certain subjects close to his heart, particularly animal exploitation and class struggle, as seen in Snowpiercer, etc. And his approach to talking about these subjects is generally to put his foot down. He goes all out. He makes no concessions. I’ve had this debate with friends who I consider to be very intelligent, but who don’t necessarily share my opinions. Showing Okja to someone who isn’t particularly inclined to become vegan, who says “I’ll eat what I want, leave me alone”, is just a way of shaking them up and saying “have you seen what you’re doing?”. It’s very violent for these kinds of people, who have nothing to do. So, it’s clearly not going to convince them. It’s a super violent approach, even though I love it. It’s something I didn’t want to do, a game that points the finger at you and says, “Have you seen what you’re doing?” It’s horrible. Afterwards, it’s always a bit difficult to get right because you still have to get your message across. The goal is to put it in the subtext, to have a game that plays well and, in the message, there’s the political aspect that I want to convey, quite simply. I wanted the game to stand on its own. I didn’t want it to rely entirely on that. Throughout the first part of development, I only worked on the action gameplay. There was none of that madness in the early demos, no narration at all, in fact. And then we became interested in the story. In this case, I find this perspective of putting the player in the game world interesting. They are a person who has to maintain order in a company. It’s a slightly strange world where people who are burnt out turn into monsters who are aggressive and cause damage around them. This company blames people who are burnt out and, therefore, eliminates them. Obviously, you’re not a good guy, but I really like this in-between position. You’re not part of the ruling classes who oppress others, but you’re not one of the oppressed either. In fact, you’re not at either table. You’re in this slightly strange position, and that’s what will allow you, at some point, to realise that what you’re doing is really not cool. And so, after a while, spoiler or not, it doesn’t matter that much because, as I’ve already mentioned, there will be an opportunity to turn against the system. Besides, you don’t have to torment people who haven’t asked for anything. If the player chooses to turn around, they will have access to another part of the game, which will not be randomly generated, in which you will try to complete the same rooms over and over again. It will be much more linear, more like Katana Zero, for example, with a series of scenes, a bit like the final climax where you go back to fight the people who are really behind it all. The conclusion isn’t very glorious, but I’m keeping that a secret. There’s this desire to use the structure of a roguelike when it’s relevant, because you’re repeating a daily routine, and when you realise that this daily routine is disastrous, it changes the structure of the game. I also found this mechanic interesting.

Point’n Think: How do you manage to include narration when the pace is so fast and players of this type of game generally tend to put the storyline on the back burner?

Maxence: It’s funny because that’s kind of what I thought at first, that people who play these games are there for the action and don’t care what I have to say. And actually, that paralysed me for a really long time because I thought that as soon as an NPC spoke more than three dialogue bubbles, people would skip it. The feedback I’ve had shows that this is completely wrong. I’ve had lots of players who thought it was just an action game and loved the storytelling. I really like that feedback because it’s “come for the gameplay and stay for the story”. The goal is also to have a distilled narrative. And again, I don’t want there to be an NPC who comes along and says that society is bad. I really want to try to get people to understand the mechanism of why it’s not working and where it comes from. I don’t know if I’ll succeed. It’s still very hypothetical, there’s a part of the game that’s not finished, but that’s the ambition. And for now, in terms of storytelling, I’ve had some very good feedback. I have NPCs who ultimately don’t say much, but who are based on archetypes of people who are caricatures of the working world. They think in ways that reflect my perception of these personalities. For example, there’s the character who guides the player. This is Claire, who is completely aware of what’s wrong. But in a way, she plays the game to try to put herself in the best possible position. Basically, she knows the game is rigged. If there can only be one free person, it will be her. So she is capable of betraying everyone to improve her situation because she knows she can’t change the world and that’s just the way it is.

I put a Rogue-lite tag on it because you have to do that so people can get a rough idea of the gameplay. But in my mind, it’s not really one. I’m pretty sure that creators don’t really like very rigid video game genres. They like to try and blur the boundaries. For the consumer, it’s important to know what they’re getting into. I have no ambition whatsoever to make a Rogue-lite that is very comprehensive or has crazy replayability. The whole end of the game is very linear but very difficult. In fact, the random loop part will also be a kind of training for the gameplay so that the player can tackle this second part. With enough knowledge, they will potentially be able to get through it. The ultimate goal of the game is to have this reversal of fortune, to have people say, “Ah, I thought it was a roguelike,” but in the end, it’s not really, and to have an ending above all. I’d like to make several, but once it’s finished, I’d be surprised if many people started a new run. In any case, that wasn’t necessarily the ambition. I don’t think I could manage on my own to add enough variety to make it that interesting. It’s a bit pessimistic to say that, but you have to be realistic too. I don’t have the ambition to make a Hades. It’s clearly not possible, quite simply. I like to use the Rogue-like structure to do something else.

Point’n Think: One small thing that’s quite surprising in the gameplay is the limited-use weapons. Once the magazine is empty, it’s impossible to reload. What’s the idea behind this mechanic?

Maxence: It wasn’t a choice I made from the outset. It’s always been a pain to balance.

In Hotline Miami and Katana Zero, when you die, you respawn immediately. It’s very difficult, but by repeating the process, you learn the patterns, and that’s how you progress. By memorising and revising that section of the game, you eventually get through it. For me, because the structure is different, I can’t do that. You have to encourage the player to try to rush in a little. That’s always been something I’ve had trouble doing. Because basically, there was a weapon that you kept, with unlimited ammunition, that you could upgrade. These are mechanics that encourage the player to try to stay in their corner and shoot enemies from a distance. I find the gameplay more stylish and more fun when you try to improvise. When you kill an enemy, a weapon drops, and you make do with that. The reference for that feeling is totally John Wick. You could say there’s something political about those films, but in any case, it’s just for the gameplay and feeling reference. It’s really the guy who takes out 50 guys when he didn’t have a plan to begin with. That improvisational aspect is what I wanted to try to implement, because in an action game, it can be stylish, quite simply. It’s a bit like what you find in Hong Kong cinema, in the game Sifu if we want to talk about gameplay. It’s difficult to tell players to try, go for it and seize opportunities. By killing enemies, he’ll come across new weapons that will allow him to kill other enemies, and so on.

To come back to the original question, because I’ve strayed a bit, but it’s very related, to create this feeling of improvisation, several things are needed. I didn’t necessarily understand that enemies should be relatively easy to defeat and have loot. Basically, if enemies drop weapons at their feet and the player needs weapons, they are forced to move forward to retrieve them. It’s this idea that forces people not to stay in one place too long. If they stay in the same place all the time, after a while they will run out of options.

Point’n Think: A quick design question: is the game randomised, or do you have control over it? In terms of level generation, it’s a bit like in The Binding of Isaac, where you have a pool of rooms, and depending on the floor, you have a certain number of rooms to generate, which are taken from a specific part of the pool to create unique levels that still remain within a well-defined structure.

Maxence: The randomness is completely controlled. Take weapon drops, for example. When you don’t have any weapons in your hand and you kill an enemy, there’s an 80% chance they’ll give you a weapon, but there’s a short cooldown so you don’t just get weapons. So if a weapon has been dropped, you have to wait a little while before it can happen again. The aim is to encourage the player to swing their weapons around and shoot however they want. There will always be a weapon, anyway. But at the same time, it’s something that’s important for gameplay, but you don’t want to reveal too much to players, because it kind of breaks the magic. But, yes, the randomness is completely controlled. For example, in level generation, there’s a structure that’s still very established. Even though the rooms are built by hand, their arrangement and the way you can approach them will have some random elements. The goal is to still have structures that take a certain amount of time to run through, so that when you don’t have any weapons, you have the opportunity to get some. Even if you’re really in trouble, you at least have a chance to redeem yourself, to heal yourself, so you can continue. When it comes to level design, it’s the same principle. For example, there will inevitably be a room that contains a mini-boss, another that heals you, or an NPC that advances the story, etc. It’s quite important to distil little moments of story, because that’s also what will encourage players to restart in the hope of encountering an NPC to learn a little more about this intriguing world. That’s the kind of desire I want to instil. You have to force the randomness a little so that, on the first run, there’s a good chance they’ll come across that NPC. On the second run, the player will find that thing that will encourage them to do certain things, etc. In fact, you always have to give the player a little incentive to start the game again.

Point’n Think: Regarding further development, do you plan to try to find a publisher or continue self-publishing? 

Maxence: I haven’t entirely made up my mind on that question. Let’s just say that I don’t like the approach that many indie developers take with publishers. It feels a bit like many developers are powerless in the face of them. There’s a power dynamic that I don’t really like in that regard. Basically, if they’re lucky enough to find a publisher, great, they’ve made it, and if not, they’re screwed.

For now, I don’t particularly need external funding to finish the game, but I still need help with promotion and publication. I don’t have the necessary clout as an independent developer, which is where a good publisher would be useful. I still want to be a little selective, though. I’ve realised that there are a lot of scam publishers who try to target people exactly like me, who are working alone. I’m not at all closed to working with a publisher. We’ll just have to see what kind of relationship we have, quite simply. It’s just that it also has to be a publisher I’ve heard of before, because otherwise, I’m sorry, but they’re not doing their job. If I haven’t heard of them, or all they’ve published are games that are a bit borderline or made on Unreal in two hours like a clone of Only Up, it doesn’t inspire much confidence.

Point’n Think: Do you think that being able to be independent, especially in terms of production, is made easier by being a solo developer?

Maxence: It depends, because as a solo developer, I know I’m a terrible manager to myself. I know I impose horrible schedules on myself, and I could never impose that on someone else. It would be completely absurd. Given the theme of my game, exploiting someone just because I work myself to death would be inappropriate. So yes, it is easier. You can also afford to pay yourself much less, because you can impose things on yourself that you wouldn’t impose on someone else. It’s not for everyone. I have some very good friends who were in my class and are currently working on their own game. It’s funny because it’s a parallel development, and we regularly catch up with each other. They started out as a pair, and I think there are about five of them working on the project now. They’re working on a game called Hats & Guns. We don’t have the same approach at all. I’m very much a solo artist, I’m independent, and ultimately, I do what I want. They have other constraints, but ultimately, they’re doing really well on their own too. It depends on the project, it depends on a lot of things, but you can’t be too ambitious when you’re a solo artist, because you can’t.

Point’n Think: You mentioned earlier that there were lots of topics you wanted to address through your games. You’re starting with work. Could you tell me about other themes that are important to you, or would you rather keep them secret for future projects?

Maxence: I can talk about them. But I don’t want to sound pompous. There’s one thing I find unfortunate, which is that there’s auteur cinema in film, but not in video games. There are films where the director or screenwriter wanted to convey a message. I like this kind of cinema, especially Bong Joon Ho, who we were talking about earlier. He claims to be an auteur filmmaker, even though he makes big productions. But in any case, this approach isn’t really present in video games, even though it’s starting to emerge a little. There are some very influential figures who impose their vision on a game and are starting to use video game codes to convey a message, but let’s say that this category of game has not yet been formalised. And that appeals to me. The approach of the guy behind The Last of Us [Editor’s note: Neil Druckmann] is a bit like that. That game is about love and hate. I like this approach of saying, “I’m going to bring in this big theme, and I’m going to try to make it permeate every pore of the video game.” I’d like to be part of that movement, if it ever exists. I have Lucas Pope’s Papers, Please as an example. It’s an excellent game, because first of all, it’s an excellent game, but above all, it makes you understand the state of mind people had in the Soviet Union, with this policy of denunciation. Why did these people do horrible things? They told themselves that it was all part of a mechanism, that ultimately it wasn’t their fault, etc. I think this is the best way to understand the population of that era and why it happened. It’s brilliant.

Another theme I’d really like to explore is one that’s even closer to my heart than work, even though in my mind, the two are linked. I’ve already put a lot of ideas on the table. I’m trying out different approaches to see how it could be interesting in the video game world. I’d really like to talk about the theme of death, and how we approach it, and potentially immortality. I think if Work in Progress allows me to make another game, it will be completely about that.

Point’n Think: At a trade show like Indie Game Lyon, can you tell if the game’s message is getting across?

Maxence: Not at all. I’m not going to decide that at a trade show. It’s really going to be through playtests at home. At trade shows, people don’t have time to read what’s going on, no time to immerse themselves. There’s too much noise, they’re not there specifically to play a game where they’re going to sit down for 40 minutes and think. Indie Game Lyon really reassured me that the gameplay is stylish. That’s what I’m looking for at a trade show. One thing that really surprised me, for example, was that there were two waves of children who played the game and really liked it, even though that wasn’t the audience I was looking for. I asked one of the parents and he told me that he played Hollow Knight, which is surprising. Indie Game Lyon came at a time when I was feeling a bit demotivated about the project. It brought me some wishlists, but not that many in the end. Above all, it confirmed that I wasn’t crazy, that the game is good. There are people who can play it and, within a few minutes, say it’s cool. It made me realise that it was worth continuing because people can appreciate what I do, quite simply. As a solo developer, there’s always a bit of imposter syndrome. It’s difficult to find legitimacy. I struggle with that a lot, and it’s always nice to get positive feedback.

Point’n Think: Do you think that being a solo developer is like sailing blind, not really knowing if what you’re doing is going in the right direction? Unlike being surrounded by a team where you always have someone to test the mechanics and see if everything is working properly.

Maxence: There’s that, but in a way, it’s kind of what I was looking for. If I had a team or if I had to pitch to an investor, I’m well aware that a game with a presentation like, “It’s a roguelike, but it’s not a roguelike, but in the end, it tells you something,” wouldn’t have flown. This idea of having something a bit weird, a bit in between, which is only possible because I’m independent, was necessarily a bit of a gamble, but I kind of signed up for that. Sometimes it’s complicated, because I find it hard to confirm whether what I’m doing is really good, or whether it’s just me having a delusion. And besides, luckily I do have some support in that regard. I have playtesters that I know, that I trust, and that I know will tell me how it is. They’ll tell me if it’s no good, if it’s rubbish. I always do it in two stages. First, I do playtests with people I know, but I know they’ll tell me the truth. Then I do playtests with people I don’t know. And again, they have no reason to lie to me because they’re not going to mince words. That way, I can be sure of what I’m doing and that the project is heading in the right direction.

Point’n Think: Last question. You’ve just released the demo, what’s next for Work in Progress?

Maxence: I’m taking my time. I’m pretty happy because, technically, the demo ended up having very few bugs. I really thought I’d spend a month making patches, but two corrective patches were enough. So I started working on the next steps, even though, once again, the goal is also to start talking about it. I find it quite difficult to gain legitimacy. In any case, it’s not my style to go on the internet and promise things without being able to show them. I don’t really like that approach. Now that I have a demo, I’m much more inclined to talk about the game. I know I’m going to spend quite a bit of time where development will slow down a bit because I’m going to try to talk about it a little bit around me and on the internet. After that, I’ll simply continue with the demo, and finally, the rest of the game. I might do a big update to the demo, an overhaul of the enemy AI and a couple of other things that have changed to bring it even closer to the final game. 

That concludes our interview with Maxence Jacquot. For those who are curious, the demo is available on Steam. Feel free to try it out and add the game to your wish list if you like it.